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Post by Burt on Dec 17, 2008 5:23:36 GMT -5
Guys, Would love to hear you input on the subject, here is mine. After hunting 30+ years taking 1 booner and two other very respectable deer you would think QDM would be on my mind. Looking back at my season I passed on shooting doe with the bow, did not see much until Thanksgiving weekend and took a 4 pt. There were some people in my area that thought we were into QDM and frowned at me taking the small buck also frowned on my brother for shooting a button buck that was on the run (you can't tell the difference between a doe and a button buck when they are moving.) I have 56 acres and would think about managing it if all my neighbors were into the same thing. My wonderful neighbor next door has a bunch of family from out-of-state come in and they want to go home with venison so they shoot anything. There land there choice. My neighbor to the north owns 350 acres and does QDM. So I have a mixture of thoughts planted around me. I do believe that QDM works in certain situations so this is what I propose: DEC does away with all nuisance permits and gives out many more doe permits to hunters in these areas. First time hunters get to shoot any buck, one time only. Bucks have to be better than 6 points to harvest. One buck limit per season. Open archery Oct 1st have an early muzzle loader season (5 days) including crossbow. Shorten the gun season to 2.5 weeks and have a longer bow/muzzle loader/crossbow season at the end. Hunters must check in with the DEC whether or not they shoot a deer to get next years license. All this can be done by asking the paying hunter when they buy there license if they they want QDM or not. If they vote yes we implement the plan for 3-4 years and vote on it again at the end of this time. Of course I put in season changes but maybe to start we just go with the management part first, what do you guys think?
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Post by alabamaslammer on Dec 17, 2008 7:15:28 GMT -5
I like your idea's but for every common sense person who can sit down and say yeah that makes a lot of sense, you have some Whahoo who is out to shoot anything. I tend to pass on a most bucks under 6 but always hear shots an hour or so later. The government doesn't care about the quality deer we are shooting rather the amount that aren't causing accidents and most of all the tax dollars they can collect. After the news last night, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see a huge tax hike on our permits as it is. I think our governer is just pissed he can't hunt ;-) Your best bet... fence off the neighbor who kills everything and food plot/ tree cover to attract the other guys deer
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Post by CJ on Dec 17, 2008 8:26:23 GMT -5
Can't eat horns. My son and I got seven deer this year. We don't even look for horns until they are on the ground. The idea behind hunting is managing the herd for health and safety reasons.
I am sick of hearing about hunters passing on deer for QDM reasons. If we don't start managing the herd by shooting deer like we are supposed to states are going to find other ways to manage the herd.
Ways that are going to be at odds with hunters and managed hunting.
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Post by Burt on Dec 17, 2008 11:29:24 GMT -5
I too have had the deer I pass get shot minutes later on other property. It's not a matter of fencing off (can't do that or planting food plots to attract (we have 20 acres of corn) it would be nice for everyone to agree on some sort of plan. CJ hunts for population control and meat which is great. I have killed many deer in my life time and still get a thrill from shooting a doe to a big buck. QDM could be a big turn off to some hunters who might just hang up their arms. Where I hunt we see a few big shooters every year, plenty of smaller bucks and does to go around-if it aint broke don't fix it! After I wrote this in the morning N A Whitetail wrote an article in the current issue about the QDM in the Catskill region and it's success. I have yet to read it but will be interested in the results. I guess I'm not fully convinced that QDM is needed-love to hear more opinions.
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Post by CJ on Dec 17, 2008 11:46:26 GMT -5
Cliff and I argue this concept all the time. He makes his living from hunting charging hunters upwards of $3000 for an opportuntiy at a 130 class buck or better. He has to give incentives away to get people to shoot does. and he charges a $300 penalty for shooting a less than 130 class buck.
I believe all this takes away from the deer and becomes an ego thing with the hunter.
Every deer I take is a trophy no matter its size. However I can legally shoot up to 360 doe a year and 4 bucks which may jade my perspective.
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Post by Burt on Dec 17, 2008 13:29:13 GMT -5
I have the same argument. My brother-inlaw who I hunt with believes in QDM and has hunted at Hadley Creek and other outfitters, they have the land, minerals and the ability to manage. Like you said, people willing to pay $3000.00 to hunt big deer. Better yet when I leave my place it is known that a bunch of locals drive around and do big deer drives illegally. So where does that leave you?? Makes your blood boil.
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Post by CJ on Dec 18, 2008 10:23:53 GMT -5
I sent Cliff a pm. Hopefully he will jump in on this from the other side of the coin.
Thank you Burt for starting this topic.
'CJ'
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Post by Burt on Dec 18, 2008 12:58:34 GMT -5
Your welcome. I did read the article in NA Whitetail today and wasn't really impressed. Sure bigger deer are being killed but hunter satisfaction wasn't overwhelming. Would love to hear Cliff's view.
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Post by Clifford Neames on Dec 18, 2008 13:28:36 GMT -5
Are you sure about that?
First, let's set a few things straight about my outfit, The Quail Shed, in Illinois... We charge $1900 for deer hunts, $500 for food and lodging for six days, and there is no fine for shooting a deer smaller than 130 inches, although I will discuss with you whether or not you are truly trophy hunting, if you shoot one smaller than that!
So now, that we are back to the truth: The reason CJ and I tie up, is because he will shoot babies! And, I think any hunter should be willing to let the ones under a year old walk, especially button bucks. I also know that QDM is based on herd health, and is not trophy oriented, although older bucks which are targeted tend to have nicer antlers! On almost every property, I encourage hunters to take as many does as they can, and pass on young bucks, because there is almost always an imbalance in the sex ratio of the herd, which is unhealthy! It is almost impossible, given today's makeup of landowners, and smaller tracts of land, to get everyone on the same page, or to do any significant damage to the whitetail population. If you hammer them too hard, they will either become nocturnal, and almost impossible to kill legally, or vacate the immediately area, until the hunting season closes. Two things I am absolutely certain of are these. If you want to shoot bucks with bigger antlers, you must pass younger bucks, no matter what anyone else does. And, if you choose to shoot a deer because you are afraid that the neighbor will if you let him walk, then you are your own problem! I will also say that there is little more satisfying than passing younger bucks, and watching them reach maturity, and knowing that you have outsmarted an animal that is worthy of your tag, when you decide to kill him! Some folks just do not possess the necessary skills to accomplish that, and will use just about any excuse they can come up with to cover their actions when they shoot the dumbest deer in the woods, young bucks! Clifford
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Post by zemmer18 on Dec 18, 2008 16:18:26 GMT -5
I think CJ and Cliff agree on something here in a way: (CJ quote) Every deer I take is a trophy no matter its size. (Cliff quote) there is no fine for shooting a deer smaller than 130 inches, although I will discuss with you whether or not you are truly trophy hunting, if you shoot one smaller than that!
Now my point is, that in all of these discussions you have to ask yourself, What kind of hunter am I? Am I a trophy hunter based on size, or am I a meat hunter who when successful, has taken a trophy. It's all in your perspective just like QDM is. Everyone has their opinion and if regulations were put in place, someone would violate them eventually, be it the neighbor who would shoot the buck you pass on or the person that needs or wants meat to provide for his family.
I have more to add but have to run for now.
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Post by Clifford Neames on Dec 18, 2008 17:35:54 GMT -5
Meat hunters are more than welcome to shoot does... Just leave the bucks alone, if all you plan to do is cut off the antlers, and throw them in a pile!
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Post by Burt on Dec 18, 2008 19:23:13 GMT -5
This is part of the article, Hunters in units where QDM has been in effect for more than three years are becoming less enchanted with the program. The inability to harvest a buck in the past few years is causing this. 60% were in favor of protecting yearling bucks, 42% offered a strong support for the program, only 20% opposed the program. 66% of hunters wanted the program to continue. Good points you put out there Cliff. I just don't know if QDM is something that should be used by the DEC, maybe just leave it up to the landowner?
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Post by joel on Dec 18, 2008 21:01:41 GMT -5
a deer is a deer is a deer.they all taste good on the plate,well actually does taste better and i prefer to shoot them.Im against further regulations.Every try to understand the fishing regs?dont want deer hunting to get like that
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Post by Fletch on Dec 18, 2008 21:24:22 GMT -5
Antlers taste like crap and old deer are a lot less tasty than young ones.
I know resteraunts do not go out looking for the meat from the oldest animals to make their best dinners. Antlers are for egos.
Now do I let young one pass, yes up to a point but come later in the season the freezer is what matters. Also I see more bucks than does. I had 7 shots I could have taken in bow this year, 6 were bucks. I have no problem taking a doe, I just need the oportunity.
On another note state mandated antler regs are not QDM!! It is highgrading and will most likely manage to decrease the average antler size of our bucks. What do you think taking the best animals out of an age class will do?? Before the stae mandates antler regs they should manage their forests better. You need food to make big bucks as well.
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Post by Burt on Dec 18, 2008 22:02:08 GMT -5
Good point fletch, the state is ready to lease away the rights to the natural gas and have it torn up in the process but won't timber areas that could benefit from it. Selective harvest of timber in the Catskills would benefit the deer with undergrowth and plenty of food. Back to QDM, if I owned 300 acres I probably would try some type of management. I only own 56 acres so it is a bit tough. I wonder what the ratio is for hunters who enjoy eating venison and QDM? So far the meat eaters don't want QDM, Cliff do you enjoy venison? My brother in-law occasionally eats it and is in favor of QDM. Hmm?
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